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Crimson and Gold - No Agenda, No Problem

Small Council Crimson and Gold scantrell24

In the past year there have been three indisputably dominant decks: Targ KotHH, Greyjoy TLV, and now Martell Quentyn. Each combined a perfect blend of card advantage, board control, and late-game aggressiveness. Today we’re going to discover how Lannister can emulate that recipe with a No Agenda deck.

First let’s establish what card advantage, control, and aggression look like in practice.

Targ KotHH
As an example, you can view Bruno’s 2012 World Championship decklist here and watch the final match here.

For card draw, the Targaryen deck relied on Street Waif (AToT), Jhogo (OSaS), Company of the Cat (THoBaW), Bay of Ice (KotS) and Meraxes (TBC). Targ doesn't have that many options compared to some Houses, but the ones it does have are repeatable.

Targ KotHH could muck with an opponent’s plans primarily through burn like Threat from the North (PotS), Magister Illyrio (VM), Meereen Tourney Grounds (ODG), Flame-Kissed (Core), and The Hatchlings' Feast (ASitD), but it also utilized other means of control like The First Snow of Winter (ODG), Search and Detain (HtS), Viserion (QoD), and Aegon's Hill (TTotH).

Then to close out the game and actually win challenges, Khal Drogo (Core), Young Griff (VD), Long Lances (THoBaW) and Rhaenys's Hill (TBoBB) did work by stealthing, standing, and jumping in unexpectedly.

Greyjoy TLV
For an example, check out my Regional-winning decklist here.

The Greyjoy deck gained extra cards with The Long Voyage (TPoL), Negotiations at the Great Sept (TPoL), Bay of Ice (KotS), The Reader (TGF) and Longship Iron Victory (KotS). The agenda, of course, was the primary method as it fired every turn without fail.

Greyjoy TLV canceled everything in sight with GOT=CbtC]Maester Murenmure[/GOT], Alannys Greyjoy (ODG), and To Be a Kraken (SB). It blanked opposing threats with Nightmares (LoW), it discarded troublesome locations with Newly Made Lord (TftH) and Captain of the Iron Fleet (TGM), and it shrugged off military claim and kill effects with saves from Maester Wendamyr (KotS), Moqorro (VD), The Iron Cliffs (HtS), and Risen from the Sea (KotS). All of these aspects together made it frustrating to play against.

Finally, the Greyjoy TLV deck could turn up the heat in a hurry. It had a non-kneeler in Asha Greyjoy (WLL), a claim-raiser in Victarion Greyjoy (RotK), stealth in Baelor Blacktyde (TIoR) and Iron Fleet Captain (CD), and strength boosts from Naval Escort (ASitD). Meanwhile several two-claim plots like Rise of the Kraken (KotS), Twist of Fate (APS), and Victarion's Scheme (TPoL) ensured that every challenge made an impact.

Martell No Agenda / Quentyn
You can view a close guess at the Gencon-winning decklist here and watch video of the finals match here.

For card advantage, Martell relies on The Viper's Bannermen (PotS), House Messenger (PotS), and Dornish Paramour (TTotH) until Quentyn Martell (VD) himself shows up. The Summer version would include Samwell Tarly (TRS) and Gilly (RoW) .

To limit an opponent’s effectiveness they run cancels like He Calls It Thinking (PotS), Sunspear Tourney Grounds (ODG) and maybe Paper Shield (QoD). To bounce or kneel an opponent’s best characters they have Ghaston Grey (FtC) and Lost Oasis (AToT), with Greenblood Merchant (ARotD) stripping an icon off whatever is left.

Then Quentyn decks can push their advantage with characters that participate in multiple challenges via the vengeful keyword or through other cards effects likeTo the Spears! (PotS) and either The Red Viper (PotS) or The Red Viper (APS). They have a claim-raiser in Arianne Martell (PotS) and great keywords from Ser Gerris Drinkwater (CD), Ser Archibald Yronwood (CD), and Ser Cletus Yronwood (TCC). This deck, live Greyjoy TLV, also packs several two-claim plots like Men of Pride (THoBaW), Breaking and Entering (LotR), and Manning the City Walls (CD), and often uses them early to widen its advantage.

Lannister No Agenda
At this moment in time, with a new cycle just beginning and a new FAQ expected before Worlds, No Agenda is one the best options for Lannister players – possibly the best option. The card draw and control elements are much the same as any Lannister deck, but No Agenda gains access to a tremendous army, House Clegane Brigands (AToTT), that can participate in multiple challenges with high strength and a war crest – thus providing the needed aggression that Lannister decks often lack.

Let’s take a close look at two recently successful decklists and keep in mind how they achieved card advantage, control, and aggression.

Poland’s Flea Bottom Fracas 2013 First Place:
The decklist can be found in the comments section of this article.

For card advantage, you can’t help but notice Grand Maester Pycelle (Core). He’s a seldom-used card that counters Martell’s numerous reveal effects as well as Desperate Measures (TCC), Naval Reinforcements (RotK), Val (RotO), Maester Luwin (FtC), Braided Screamers (AToTT), Dance With Dragons (Core), and Jeyne Westerling (ASoS) among others. Frankly, Pycelle’s inclusion was a brilliant meta call that will no doubt be copied in the future. But Pycelle was just the tip of the iceberg. A full playset each of Pyromancer's Cache (TWot5K), Golden Tooth Mines (Core) and Tommen Baratheon (SA) round out the card advantage engine and nearly ensure that you’ll hit the draw cap every turn. Three Summer Sea Corsair (RotK) mixed in for good measure adds a reveal of our own (circumventing the draw cap), and he lays the foundation for a shadows subtheme.

Control effects in Lannister are usually reliant on kneel, at least to some extent. Here we find Enemy Informer (Core), Alchemist's Guild Hall (TBoBB) and Lannisport Brothel (Core), which are supplemented by other forms of character control like The Iron Throne (LotR), Enslaved (THoBaW) andA House Divided (WLL), and location control from Pyromancer's Apprentice (TBoBB)). I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention the plot lineup too, which is chock full of Cities for versatile, on-demand control.

Now card advantage and control are great, but we have to remember that they’re only a means to an end. Eventually you’ll need to translate your superior board position into power gain through unopposed challenges, claim, dominance, renown, or card abilities. This particular decks packed a couple of two-claims plots in City of Soldiers (TBoBB) and City of Spiders (TftRK), but it also ran more aggressive characters than a customary Lannister deck. We already touched on the Brigands, but there’s also Tyrion Lannister (CoS), Ser Jaime Lannister (Core), and Fleet from The Arbor (RotK) – all of which have either stealth or deadly to push through challenges.

Gencon Top 16:
I mentioned Jim’s deck briefly in my last article, but since then he’s posted the entire decklist.

Jim’s draw package included Doubting Septa (LotR) and Widow's Wail (LotR) in place of the Cache, which freed up the restricted slot for Pentoshi Manor (AHM) – a top notch, repeatable challenge control effect. Otherwise Jim favored location control like Chella, Daughter of Cheyk (Core) and Condemned by the Council (AToT) over kneel, probably to combat influence-heavy Targ jumper decks. To win challenges he had stealth from Syrio Forel (TftRK), Ser Kevan Lannister (VM), Chella, and Tyrion, plus deadly from House Payne Enforcer (MotA) and the Fleet, and finally strength boosts from Painted Dogs (IG) and Widow’s Wail.

Final Thoughts

Lanni No Agenda has made strides, but even with the Brigands it still trails Quentyn decks in the last component – aggression. To cover this flaw some variations run Die by the Sword (LoW) and Terminal Schemes (LotR) to remove major characters and then run over the rest with beefy armies. Others turn to more soft control like Penny (VD) and Volantis Inn (AHM) – because it’s hard for an opponent to defend when all his characters are knelt, or he doesn’t have any in hand to play after losing intrigue challenges every turn. Overall I’m convinced that Lanni No Agenda can be solid, and as displayed at the Flea Bottom Fracas, a little ingenuity can push it over the top.
  • OrangeDragon, celric and LorasTyrell like this


27 Comments

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LorasTyrell
Sep 05 2013 11:49 AM
Lanni No Agenda one of the best decks right now IMO, it destroys Quentyn charagenda
    • happyred likes this
Before even reading any further, I must voice my strong disagreement with the very first sentence.
"In the past year there have been three indisputably dominant decks: Targ KotHH, Greyjoy TLV, and now Martell Quentyn."
Indisputable? Really? Because I dispute the hell out of it.
What big tournaments has Targ KotHH won, besides Worlds? And what about Quentyn? Just because DC did its thing with it, it's now "indisputably dominant"? Nah.
Look. Last year at Worlds, DC all brought the same Stark Winter deck, and it was pretty much as dominant as Quentyn was now at GenCon, with one little difference: Bruno beat Erick in the final. That's one friggin' game. Now, if Erick had beaten Bruno, as he had in the Swiss, and if Bruno had been at Gencon and won with, hell, I don't know, whatever, let's say Bara BS, then your sentence would be "In the past year there have been three indisputably dominant decks: Stark Winter, Greyjoy TLV, and now Bara BS."
Just because a great player like Bruno or the DC guys win one tournament doesn't make a deck "indisputably dominant".
    • Alando, accountdeleted, kizerman86 and 3 others like this
I would tend to agree with my learned brethren here. Trying to reduce the 'dominant' decktypes into only three decks from the duration of last year is pretty much a doomed proposition. While it's a classic way of trying to cope with an overabundance of information, it can be really misleading when done wrong.

E. g. I was once in physics class, where we had to do some calculations for how people in a bus will behave when the bus hits a speedbump. For the sake of simplifying the situation, the people were first modeled as spherical objects, and then as springs. Now, I'm pretty sure that we lost quite a bit of detail on the way, and the results aren't really all that relevant... Oh, and unsurprisingly the results were widely different based on which assumption was made.

One thing a scientist knows better than most is that sometimes things are just bloody complex, and no single sentence can be used to sum them up. After a certain point you just lose too much detail for the whole thing to make sense anymore.

During the last year we've seen a lot of rise and fall, and there's at least ~10 other decks that could easily contest every single one of those on that 3-item list. For example? Stark Winter, GJ Maesters, Martell KotHH, Baratheon Wildlings, Lannister Tunnels, Targ Maesters, Baratheon TLV, Stark No Agenda, GJ BS, Martell Maesters... They've all had their time close to the sun, one way or another.

That said, I do kind of appreciate the irony of 'the winners writing the history' playing out on this miniature scale of one card game.
    • Alando, accountdeleted and celric like this
Scantrell - Rereading my comment above, I realize it probably came out more huffy than I intended. Sorry for the tone, and thanks for the article. ~But I do stand by the content of my remarks. Indisputably dominant my ass! ;)

Drakey - I was in the process of penning yet another scathing rebuttal, but then I inferred from context that you must've meant me by "learned brethren". Dude, whatever it is you're smoking, I want some!
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scantrell24
Sep 05 2013 01:05 PM
Dispute it all you want, but I'll stand by my intro. Targ KotHH didn't just win Worlds - it spawned a ton of copycats that were incredibly strong for the next ~3 months until the FAQ hit. That deck was everywhere on OCTGN for a reason. It won consistently.

Same thing with Quentyn. If I went to Gencon, that's what I would have brought, because I thought it was the strongest deck going into the tournament. The results just confirmed that.

Also, maybe we have different definitions of "indisputably dominant". To me that's winning 55+% against almost every matchup.

If you're still unhappy, then just change it to "here's an example of how three very good decks from the last year won".

But anyways, back to Lannister...

Also, maybe we have different definitions of "indisputably dominant".

We certainly have different definitions of "dominant". Different definitions of "indisputably dominant" is a contradiction in terms. If different definitions are possible, it's not indisputable.

How do you ascertain that Targ KotHH decks won 55+% of their matchups over that timeframe?

But you're right, this is probably pointless. Back to Lannister.
If Castellan of the Rock (BoRF) is removed from the Restricted list with the next FAQ (please!), I believe Lannister will have all the pieces in place to fulfill its destiny to "dominate" ( ;)) the tournament scene!
    • Stthefrenchie likes this
I think that I disagree with the opening statement a little bit as well. I think Targ TLV and Martell TLV were also a very strong decks pre-FAQ.

To be honest, I think there were at least a half dozen very strong decks that ended up winning multiple regionals. Post-FAQ, I think there are now about half a dozen(probably several others as well) different very strong decks that could have won Worlds.

I think that, again, World's results and Stahleck results will be completely different and prove that there isn't a narrow deck type that can be really strong with the right pilot.
Though I agree in large part with my European brothers who think you may have oversimplified the metagame of the past year, I also think your analysis of what makes those decks good was pretty solid, but all three of those decktypes were a far sight short of the dominance of early Maester decks, old-school hyperkneel, or 6-agenda North decks (that's a good thing, though BTW).

I also think this shows that Lannister has the tools in place to compete with top-tier decks, though I think they will always have a few poor matchups. I really like the list that won in Europe, combining old-school Lannister strengths with some powerful new cards and then a dash of the unexpected--Pycelle! Genius!
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accountdeleted
Sep 05 2013 02:35 PM

Indisputably dominant my ass!


This.

That deck was everywhere on OCTGN for a reason.


OCTGN is the best meta ever. Preparation for Stahleck: How to ragequit at tournaments. Intriguing.


:angry: Thou shalt not hoax thy audience. :angry:
lol, just the fact that people ARE disputing it means that the first statement is false.
    • WWDrakey and Lampros like this
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scantrell24
Sep 05 2013 03:23 PM
All of you are missing the point of the article. If you want to say that Targ KotHH, Greyjoy TLV, and Martell Quentyn were/are merely "strong" or "good" and not "dominant", then whatever, we're arguing semantics. The point was to apply concepts from those builds to Lanni No Agenda. Move on please.
    • celric, 14Shirt and jstrong77 like this
I don't think anyone would dispute that those decks were in the Tier 1 grouping during their heyday. If you're reading "dominant" as meaning better than everything else, then I think you're missing the point. Those decks were consistently better at winning than a vast majority of decks, outside of a handful of other Tier 1 decks from their timeframe that could compete.

Anyways, the next Wars Are Won With Quills is going to delve into what makes decks fall into various tiers, so perhaps we can save our inevitable arguing for the comments section there instead of mucking up a nice Lannister discussion :)
    • celric likes this

If Castellan of the Rock (BoRF) is removed from the Restricted list with the next FAQ (please!), I believe Lannister will have all the pieces in place to fulfill its destiny to "dominate" ( ;)) the tournament scene!


Alright I am very curious why everyone is saying Castellan should be removed from the restricted list and doesn't deserve to be on the restricted list.....yet it seems like about 50% or more lannister decks use Castellan as there restricted card!? umm to me that is a sign that it is extremely strong and deserves to be on the restricted list.
    • Alando and LorasTyrell like this

Alright I am very curious why everyone is saying Castellan should be removed from the restricted list and doesn't deserve to be on the restricted list.....yet it seems like about 50% or more lannister decks use Castellan as there restricted card!? umm to me that is a sign that it is extremely strong and deserves to be on the restricted list.

Castellan made it onto the restricted list back when Lanni Shadows was dominating due to the insane amount of efficient repeatable control that Castellan plus Alchemist's Guild Hall provided. That didn't really work to solve the issue, however, because Lanni at the time didn't really have any other better Restricted choices anyways. Then they errata'd Alchemist's Guild Hall so that you couldn't use it in combination with itself or with Castellan (since both are now Limited Responses), and that did solve the issue, except then they left Castellan Restricted even though they errata'd away the combination that landed it on the restricted list to begin with.

Basically it's a lot like the situation with Laughing Storm and Threat From the East. The original solution was to restrict both cards and even then some Bara decks still played Laughing Storm as their restricted. But after the errata to Threat From the East they went ahead and unrestricted Laughing Storm because the problematic combo was resolved. I don't think anyone would argue that Laughing Storm isn't a damn good card that was worth the restricted slot even still, but the point of the Restricted list is to eliminate broken combos and encourage varieties of decks, and at this point leaving Castellan restricted isn't really accomplishing either of those.
    • PulseGlazer likes this
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accountdeleted
Sep 05 2013 05:40 PM
:angry: Thou shalt not hoax thy audience. :angry:
even without that combo i think castellian is still worthy of being on the restricted list, and lannister is my second favorite house to play so isn't like i wouldn't like it off just i feel like it should be on still.
    • celric likes this
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PulseGlazer
Sep 05 2013 06:30 PM
3 cost non-unique ally that doesn't work in multiple? It needn't be restricted. It's in no way better than NCF, TLS, Distinguished Boatswains, Ellaria, and many other cards.
    • jstrong77 likes this
Idk i can see why could argue against it being restricted but in most of my lanni decks i choose it as my restricted card because it is that good! i would say making it an ally hurts a bit if wasn't an ally be lot better.
Obvious troll is obvious

Let it go
As much as I want to jump into this Castellan debate, I think the most important part of scantrell24's

article is the variety of Lanni control available BEYOND kneel.



Despite the prevalence of the hyper-kneel archetype, it rarely seems to measure up to other Tier 1 decks (many of which were listed above). LukaszO mixed kneel into a wide variety of control effects to put the Lions of Lannister on top.

TVB has been a great restricted card and continues to be very strong. Yet, it's not that scary if you can cancel its effect, if it also gives you cards, or if you can kneel it indefinitely. Heck, there may be other answers even beyond those. Now that Quentin is the flavor of the month, people will alter their KotHH, BS, and other decks to find ways to strengthen them against Quentin decks.

Sweet article, I am a Lanni player at heart and built a No Agenda/war crest/army/kneel them/stand my guys deck, for a bit of fun; but was surprised by how powerful the Brigands were. However the deck could only win the old fashioned way of Dom, unopposed and power claim (Literally NO renowned). I added in some renowned guys but it diluted my army/war crest theme, so still haven't found the optimum build. AlsoGrand Maester Pycelle (Core) is a sweet meta call, I love it. On another note Apart from the Quentyn Deck which is still relatively fresh on the scene (IMO); how are the other two in dispute over being dominant? They were both HUGE and meta defining. Albeit there were others decks that were strong and won etc, but doesn't make it incorrect to say those (*qualified) 3 were indisputably dominant in the meta.
I gotta say though that i am loving my non traditional lanni deck but not giving much away because probably will be my worlds deck at this pace, but it uses lot of deck type of what talked about
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scantrell24
Sep 06 2013 11:39 AM

Sweet article, I am a Lanni player at heart and built a No Agenda/war crest/army/kneel them/stand my guys deck, for a bit of fun; but was surprised by how powerful the Brigands were. However the deck could only win the old fashioned way of Dom, unopposed and power claim (Literally NO renowned). I added in some renowned guys but it diluted my army/war crest theme, so still haven't found the optimum build.


Thanks, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Even with the Brigands Lanni is still slow because there's little to no renown/impact characters, and if the opposing deck is resistant to kneel (jumpers, vengeful, cancel, etc.) then we need other methods of control to mitigate the lack of aggression.

On another note Apart from the Quentyn Deck which is still relatively fresh on the scene (IMO); how are the other two in dispute over being dominant? They were both HUGE and meta defining. Albeit there were others decks that were strong and won etc, but doesn't make it incorrect to say those (*qualified) 3 were indisputably dominant in the meta.


Yeah, I was scratching my head at the backlash to that assertion too. It didn't strike me as controversial at all.
The way you stated it makes it sound like those are the only 3 decks that were ever dominant. Which is completely incorrect and thats why everyone was flipping out on you. You chose a poor choice of words. There are far more then just 3 decks that have been dominant in this past year. The way you said it just sounds like there have only been 3 decks.
    • WWDrakey and accountdeleted like this