338 replies to this topic

[purpleturtlebear]

What are you planning on running in your phoenix decks?

[estyles]

Was looking for some discussion on Phoenix strategy.  Not finding it, I'll instead present my current thoughts on a Phoenix build.  No testing, some medium amount of thought put into it:

 

Edit: I really didn't like the way the deckbuilder exported this, messing around with it...

 

 

Deck Created with  CardGameDB.com Legend of the Five Rings Deckbuilder

 

 

Deck Clan: Phoenix

 

Total Cards: (85)

 

Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)

 

Total Influence: (9/10)

 

Stronghold:  

1x Isawa Mori Seidō (Core Set #5)

 

Role:  

1x Seeker of Void (Core Set #218B)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (0/1) Fire (1/1) Void (2/2) Water (1/1)  

1x Kuroi Mori (Core Set #12)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x Rally to the Cause (Core Set #23)

1x Night Raid (Core Set #21)

1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (45)   Actually, 36

3x Adept of the Waves (Core Set #84)

3x Asako Diplomat (Core Set #85)

3x Fearsome Mystic (Core Set #91)

3x Isawa Atsuko (Core Set #92)

3x Isawa Masahiro (Core Set #90)

3x Meddling Mediator (Core Set #86)

3x Naive Student (Core Set #81)

3x Serene Warrior (Core Set #88)

3x Shiba Peacemaker (Core Set #82)

3x Shiba Tsukune (Core Set #93)

3x Solemn Scholar (Core Set #83)

3x Shiba Yōjimbō (Core Set #89)

 

Holding: (4)  

3x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)

1x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

 

 

Character [Conflict]: (9/10)  

3x Ishiken Initiate (Core Set #170)

3x Seeker of Knowledge (Core Set #171)

3x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)

 

Attachment: (13)  

2x Grasp of Earth (Core Set #173)

3x Magnificent Kimono (Core Set #172)

3x Pacifism (Core Set #174)

3x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)

2x Height of Fashion (Core Set #143)

 

Event: (18)  

3x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)

3x Display of Power (Core Set #179)

3x Know the World (Core Set #178)

3x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)

3x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

[xRAVEx]

why don't you want to use way of the phoenix? It's a really useful event, especially if you're the 2nd player.

[estyles]

why don't you want to use way of the phoenix? It's a really useful event, especially if you're the 2nd player.

 

Excellent question - the answer is that I don't like it.  Since most people do like it, I'm guessing that I'll change my opinion with some experience but for now...

 

• For my first few games, playing against someone else who is also new to the game, I may not be able to guess correctly which ring he wants to go after.  I might guess wrong, or he might choose suboptimally, but either way, if I pick a ring that he didn't want to contest, then it's just a waste of a card, or equivalently, a 2 honor swing in the wrong direction.
• I'd rather concentrate on trying to win conflicts, or on using Display of Power on conflicts that I know I can't win.  Therefore, if one ring is better in a given situation, I'd rather either resolve it myself with DoP or try to stop my opponent from resolving it by winning on defense - as opposed to just changing which ring he resolves.  All the ring effects are pretty good, so him getting Earth instead of Air (or whatever), how much incremental benefit is that?  I'd rather the Way of Phoenix be a card that I can use to try and win a conflict.
• Sure, I can't always win on defense and I can't always have Display of Power, but similarly, I can't always have Way of Phoenix either.  And if I play Way of Phoenix and defend and manage to win, then it was mostly wasted anyway.  (Or at least half wasted - the targeted ring is still available for me to claim and resolve, if that was my goal.)
• It's not that I think Way of the Phoenix is weak, it's just that it doesn't directly help to win conflicts and doesn't directly gain me honor or honor my characters, and I don't really know what else to take out.  After a few games, I may find that 9 characters is too much in the Conflict deck, or that Banzai or Know the World or something else isn't worth 3x and will swap them out for WotP, but right now I don't know what I would remove for it and each of the cards in the deck feels more directly powerful to me than WotP.  (On the other hand WotP is free, and I think I might be a little high on costs in this deck - we'll see.)

[Ignithas]

There are 2 things that I would definitly change:

 

1) Replace "Night Raid".

 

2) Get "Way of the Phoenix" and "For Shame" into your deck. They are at least better than 50% of your deck. I'd also find room for "Charge", but this isn't that important.

[estyles]

Actually, I figured out a more concise summary of why I don't like Way of the Phoenix - it's because it is Preemptive, Transient, and Defensive. I really don't like cards with all of those traits, as they can be a waste, or at the very least difficult to time.

Those who think it's strong, care to explain how you use it? Always before the first conflict when you're second player? Sometime before the last conflict when you were first player so you can force a specific ring? And which ring? Is it always the same ring? Dependent on opponent, dependent on your own characters in play? Whichever has the most Fate?

[xRAVEx]

 

Excellent question - the answer is that I don't like it.  Since most people do like it, I'm guessing that I'll change my opinion with some experience but for now...

 

• For my first few games, playing against someone else who is also new to the game, I may not be able to guess correctly which ring he wants to go after.  I might guess wrong, or he might choose suboptimally, but either way, if I pick a ring that he didn't want to contest, then it's just a waste of a card, or equivalently, a 2 honor swing in the wrong direction.
• I'd rather concentrate on trying to win conflicts, or on using Display of Power on conflicts that I know I can't win.  Therefore, if one ring is better in a given situation, I'd rather either resolve it myself with DoP or try to stop my opponent from resolving it by winning on defense - as opposed to just changing which ring he resolves.  All the ring effects are pretty good, so him getting Earth instead of Air (or whatever), how much incremental benefit is that?  I'd rather the Way of Phoenix be a card that I can use to try and win a conflict.
• Sure, I can't always win on defense and I can't always have Display of Power, but similarly, I can't always have Way of Phoenix either.  And if I play Way of Phoenix and defend and manage to win, then it was mostly wasted anyway.  (Or at least half wasted - the targeted ring is still available for me to claim and resolve, if that was my goal.)
• It's not that I think Way of the Phoenix is weak, it's just that it doesn't directly help to win conflicts and doesn't directly gain me honor or honor my characters, and I don't really know what else to take out.  After a few games, I may find that 9 characters is too much in the Conflict deck, or that Banzai or Know the World or something else isn't worth 3x and will swap them out for WotP, but right now I don't know what I would remove for it and each of the cards in the deck feels more directly powerful to me than WotP.  (On the other hand WotP is free, and I think I might be a little high on costs in this deck - we'll see.)

 

- You don't need to think if your opponent is smart enough to take the most optimal choices, you just know what is the worst ring that they can trigger and forbids them to touch it.

- If you're the 2nd player and 1 ring has 2-3 fate, while the rest 0-1, it's a card for economic advantage!

- secure the ring you need for your shugenjas (most importantly void for Isawa Atsuko) 

- If Tsukune is in play, you don't even need to think if you can win the conflict with the ring you desire. You just play WotP, select it, then wait the end of conflict phase and trigger it

[Silme]

a glimpse at a very specialized archetype in phoenix : the phoenix missile : a very fast blitz deck easy to play...

 

I was asked to detail the idea on french board here is my article (in french sorry) : http://l5ajce.foruma...issile-by-silme

 

not the subtlier, maybe not the most competitive but an archetype totally possible and competitive in phoenix...

 

There is happily more tactical builds in this clan

[Killcrazy]

Here are my initial thoughts on their themes and possible deck direction.

 

Themes

Ring play - In the core, there's a shugenja that keys off each element. Combined with Know the World, Way of the Phoenix and Display of Power, the clan has ways to either gain a benefit from a ring in conflict or manipulate the rings to ensure they're winning the ones they want and the denying selected ones to their opponent. Lastly, Shiba Tsukune is always useful to get the benefits of Unclaimed Rings. 

 

Glory - Most of the characters are pretty inefficient compared to other clans when they're without Honoured status. In order to get the most of out of their dudes, Phoenix players will have to find ways to get them Honoured before engaging in conflict. If not, the clan will get steamrollered by the more efficient chars from other clans. 

 

Defensive - Generally, Phoenix will opt for Political conflicts over Military. At the same time, they enjoy benefits by not attacking at every opportunity. Pacifism, Display of Power, Meddling Mediator and other card play into this strategy. 

 

So based on my opinion of the clan's strength, let me posit some possible deck strategies. Note that this coming from merely studying the cards and without any actual play experience.

 

Deck direction

Slow tempo play - Play defensively, aim to win rings or manipulate them to build up advantages. Winning 3-4 rings a turn lets you build up your advantage till you're ready to hit their provinces. With the limited resources and play turns, every Fate, Honour and card count. Earning just that little bit more lets you extend your boardstate and give you more options from your Conflict hand. 

 

Politic major/military minor - Phoenix are going to always favor Politics as their chosen conflicts. This feeds into their strategy of being defensive. A single offensive conflict lets you focus your force into a single devastating province break. Secondly, because of that expectation, opponents don't expect a strong Military from Phoenix. This means with the right clan alliance and neutral cards, you can launch surprising military attacks when the opponent doesn't expect it (Charge, Vengeful Oathkeeper, Stoic Gunso, Banzai). It's a bit of a mind games play but hopefully you can lull your opponents into lapsing on defense. 

 

I'll add on more thoughts and present a deck when I have more time.

 

Cheers

[Killcrazy]

Here's my current deck idea.

 

It involves give and take. You're probably going to lose some provinces initially as you build up your board advantage. Build light first turn, aim to get that Fate from finishing Dynasty phase first. Deny or switch Rings to get the Rings you want. Save it all for the next turn and take a province or two. We'll see how it does in testing:

 

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Legend of the Five Rings Deckbuilder

 

 

Deck Clan: Phoenix

 

Total Cards: (89)

 

Total Conflict: (44) Total Dynasty: (40)

 

Total Influence: (9/10)

 

Stronghold:  

1x Isawa Mori Seidō (Core Set #5)

 

Role:  

1x Seeker of Void (Core Set #218B)

 

Province: (5)  

Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (2/2) Water (0/1)  

1x Kuroi Mori (Core Set #12)

1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)

1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)

1x Fertile Fields (Core Set #18)

 

Character [Dynasty]: (44)  

3x Naive Student (Core Set #81)

3x Shiba Peacemaker (Core Set #82)

3x Shiba Tsukune (Core Set #93)

3x Shiba Yōjimbō (Core Set #89)

3x Solemn Scholar (Core Set #83)

3x Asako Diplomat (Core Set #85)

3x Adept of the Waves (Core Set #84)

2x Isawa Masahiro (Core Set #90)

3x Meddling Mediator (Core Set #86)

2x Serene Warrior (Core Set #88)

3x Isawa Atsuko (Core Set #92)

2x Radiant Orator (Core Set #87)

2x Fearsome Mystic (Core Set #91)

 

Character [Conflict]: (9/10)  

3x Seeker of Knowledge (Core Set #171)

3x Hiruma Ambusher (Core Set #130)

3x Stoic Gunsō (Core Set #131)

 

 

Attachment: (15)  

2x Magnificent Kimono (Core Set #172)

2x Pacifism (Core Set #174)

3x Grasp of Earth (Core Set #173)

2x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)

2x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)

1x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)

3x Reprieve (Core Set #132)

 

Event: (20)  

3x Know the World (Core Set #178)

2x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)

2x Way of the Phoenix (Core Set #176)

2x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)

3x Display of Power (Core Set #179)

3x Court Games (Core Set #206)

2x Banzai! (Core Set #204)

3x Charge! (Core Set #210)

 

Holding: (5)  

2x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)

3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

[Hakkor]

I'm sure deck builds won't be much different until we get the first whole cycle, and dinasty options are wider, as well as allied splash options.

 

Phoenix is the harderst clan I have found to really understand how it should work, due it's ring type dependacy on half os it's cards.

 

I find honoring your characters is the number one priority, but I don't find the magnificent kimono honoring your characters too consistently. It requires heavy planning and trickery. Until now, the only good way to use it is to wait until the opponent decides not to fight to win the conflict, and play it in the last moment. But then, it's not as easy as it may look to keep that character from losing a conflict.

[sparrowhawk]

I agree with you, Hakkor, that honouring characters is the main priority.

I read Phoenix chose second for roles and chose Seeker of Void, just so that they can get Shameful Display instead of the water province (and 2x +1 fate in most games). It's frustrating Keeper of Fire was left until the last placed clan (even Crane ignored it) when Personal Honour is so vital to Phoenix.

Nevertheless, they have Asako Diplomat, Magnificent Kimono, Way of the Phoenix and Display of Power to obtain Glory benefits. Crane's Steward of Law is a cheap ambush to ensure no Dishonour (and deny the awful Scorpion match-up some of their tricks), especially against ubiquitous Court Games (which you can play for greater effect). And because you play 2 cost cards (Pacifism, Display of Power) that can be negated by events for huge tempo loss, it seems wise to embrace the clan's Glory emphasis (and trigger your Stronghold outside of Fearsome Mystic or Radiant Orator) and play Voice of Honour (that can be game winning as an undeclared surprise). Even once Crane has been revealed, you are now threatening Admit Defeat to deter solo defences.

Phoenix seem one of the best placed clans to pressure an Honour Victory, with its Library card draw, its 9 ring events that can bully use/re-use Air, Seeker of Knowledge and the lagged benefits of Honouring characters. However, that would require Keeper of Air and you have to work with what you've got. I've changed my mind about Roles and really dislike the mechanic (because as a competitive player, Dragon and Crab seem to have made optimal choices - so you feel handicapped playing anything else). The nuance of winning Earth (for Solemn Scholar) to later pressure Honour bids also helps. With a few more cards that support Honour Victory and the Keeper of Air role, I can see Phoenix exploring this avenue.

I expect there are several ways to play Phoenix but because of Shiba Yojimbo and Against the Waves (also Water covert from Adept of Waves), I prefer a Voltron strategy. But unlike the aggressive Dragon approach, I see it as far slower, reactive, countering for growing incremental advantage. Of course this would be far more effective in Keeper of Fire or Void but let's see what can be done with Seeker of Void (which ain't bad, I just wish it was KF, KV or KA).


Clan: Phoenix Voltron-Control
Total Conflict: (40) Total Dynasty: (40)
Total Influence: (9/10)

Stronghold:
1x Isawa Mori Seidō (Core Set #5)

Role:
1x Seeker of Void (Core Set #218B)

Provinces: (5)
Air (1/1) Earth (1/1) Fire (1/1) Void (2/2) Water (0/1)
1x Entrenched Position (Core Set #17)
1x Kuroi Mori (Core Set #12)
1x Manicured Garden (Core Set #19)
1x Meditations on the Tao (Core Set #20)
1x Shameful Display (Core Set #24)

Dynasty: (40)
3x Adept of the Waves (Core Set #84)
3x Asako Diplomat (Core Set #85)
3x Fearsome Mystic (Core Set #91)
3x Isawa Atsuko (Core Set #92)
3x Isawa Masahiro (Core Set #90)
3x Meddling Mediator (Core Set #86)
3x Miya Mystic (Core Set #125)
3x Naive Student (Core Set #81)
3x Radiant Orator (Core Set #87)
3x Shiba Peacemaker (Core Set #82)
3x Shiba Yōjimbō (Core Set #89)
3x Solemn Scholar (Core Set #83)
1x Forgotten Library (Core Set #94)
3x Imperial Storehouse (Core Set #129)

Conflict: (40)
3x Steward of Law (Core Set #139)
3x Cloud the Mind (Core Set #202)
3x Fine Katana (Core Set #200)
3x Magnificent Kimono (Core Set #172)
3x Ornate Fan (Core Set #201)
3x Pacifism (Core Set #174)
3x Against the Waves (Core Set #177)
2x Assassination (Core Set #203)
2x Banzai! (Core Set #204)
3x Court Games (Core Set #206)
3x Display of Power (Core Set #179)
3x Supernatural Storm (Core Set #175)
3x Voice of Honor (Core Set #145)
3x Way of the Phoenix (Core Set #176)


It's a good thing that Kaede is in the first pack because I'm not a fan of Tsukune:
- not a Shugenja like Kaede so Yojimbo does not protect her and she cannot ready
- 2 rings influence the conflict phase hence will be left for lesser benefit (Water, Fire)
- too vulnerable to Dishonour for such a large investment
- 5 cost = fewer fate on her to build a Voltron tower around
- no conflict deck space for Charge to use her as a cheap one shot
I appreciate her synergy with Meddling Mediator and Ishiken Initiate but it isn't enough for me. With Mediator and asymmetry of Shiba Peacemaker and Pacifism pressuring only 1 attack per turn (slows down the game as per control plan), Ishiiken Initiate is anti-synergetic so the ideal 2 for 4-4-0 vanilla as 4th conflict declared is not going to be common; compare it to free pumps and it doesn't feel like reliable good value.

I also feel that due to their far too numerous 2 Political characters (vulnerable to the Crane Stronghold and, less common, Shoju), the +1 pump of 0 cost Kimono (that benefits from Glory next turn or recoups its card cost) is worth its slot, even if Pride is double-edged, better than Grasp of Earth which is so situational, host-limited and meta-dependent.

Another problem that Phoenix has is no 0 Glory dynasty characters to escort its characters in Political conflicts and absorb the dishonour of Court Games (which perhaps bypasses Yojimbo protection as the card targets the opponent who then chooses). This was another reason why Steward of Law seemed to be very important (as well as access to cancel when playing a 2 cost event and attachment).

But overall, I sadly don't rate the Phoenix 3 Core Set pool. Yes, Kuroi Mori ensures every build must be able to handle it. I can envisage Phoenix becoming incredibly powerful as the pool expands and they get the tools to focus on certain ring strategies which only they can bully or reuse. But strong Core Set strategies tend to be simpler, pandering to our lack of experience and ambition, also the pool cannot support complex combo builds and current rainbow lack of focus. I am very much attracted to the ambition of the Phoenix themes. I just wish it was more resilient and efficient when the stars don't align.

Usual disclaimers (almost all theorycraft but I've explained my reasoning). I truly hope to be proved wrong that Core Set x3 Phoenix is indeed a force to be reckoned with.

[Killcrazy]

What are your thoughts on clans to ally with?

 

Crab - Reprieve, Stoic Gunso and Watch Commander are probably the cards you want to include. A bit of defense and the ability to pump military.

 

Crane - Voice of Honor, Steward of Law are probably the cards you want. Cancel and protection against Dishonor. Feels a bit too straightforward in play though it seems a favorite on this forum. 

 

Dragon - Mirumoto's Fury, Let Go and Tattooed Wanderer gives a good mix of offense, defense and attachment control. It also the lowers cost curve to add in to your deck to offset some more expensive Phoenix conflict cards

 

Lion - Guidance of the Ancestors, Ready for Battle and Master of Spear seem like the smart cards. Defense against Bowing and Attachment recycling lets you throw more events in. 

 

Scorpion - Calling in Favors, I Can Swim and Unassuming Yojimbo. I exclude Forged Edict as I don't see Phoenix having enough Courtiers reliably out to depend on it.

 

Unicorn - Captive Audience, Spyglass and Favored Mount. Card draw and some surprising plays possible with Phoenix's very balanced stats. Doesn't really shore up Phoenix's weakness to dishonor. 

 

I'd lean to either Dragon or Crab. Unicorn is a consideration when you're looking to play something out of left field while building up your card advantage. 

[Caldera]

I'm struggling to find a suitable clan to splash into Phoenix (a problem i don't have with my Dragon deck because everything seems to go well with Dragon). I've tried splashing Crane in Phoenix but was fairly unimpressed: For the cards I wanted to use most (Voice of Honour, Noble Sacrifice) you need to have Honoured characters first - and so far in the early days of this game it is much easier to become Dishonoured...

Might try Dragon or Crab next for a more defensive approach, but it does feel as if with Phoenix - more so than any other clan - you are looking for an alliance (can I say 'alliance' in L5R?) to shore up weaknesses rather than enhance strengths.

Nothing more insightful to report yet, but if this keeps the Crab thread off the top of the page then I'm happy...

[IFightDragons]

Phoenix seem most benefited by the Dragon ally out of the core set. The style of the Phoenix deck really revolves around slowing the game down to the point that the phoenix board becomes a power-house. In my opinion, Mirumoto's Fury is a must for that style of game, and it will almost always stop a province break and even win you a conflict. Let Go helps in this regard as well, to snipe impactful attachments and slow down the aggression of an opponent. Unicorn is a solid splash as well thanks to Spyglass and Iuchi Wayfinder, but I find Mirumoto's Fury alone outweighs those cards on value. Crane is a bit of an odd splash since it doesn't actually help the Phoenix characters become honored directly. I think Voice of Honor is a trap for Phoenix that I see a lot of people fall into. The clan simply doesn't have the consistency with having multiple honored characters for it to be effective most of the time. I would consider Crab more if dishonor was a more viable game plan for Phoenix. 

Due to this defensive style, I would recommend using provinces that provide incremental advantages for being attacked and successfully defended as your main four: Meditations on the Tao, Manicured Garden, Meditations on the Tao, and Kuroi Mori are often what I pick for my four with either an Earth Province or Rally to the Cause under the SH depending on how I feel like playing that day. These four provinces all give me a lot of power to dictate the flow of the board a bit more and give me distinct incremental bonuses for successfully preventing a province break multiple times.

 

[nightcrawlers]

Unicorn seems to be a good splash here as well. Spyglass for value and favored mount for tricks.

[sparrowhawk]

I can only agree with IFightDragons that the Dragon 6 (3x Let Go, 3x Fury) is always good as a splash (cf. Crane Thread). But here it is the Dragon 5 due to the Seeker role and Phoenix do have synergies to actually play Miya Mystic so pressure to play Dragon splash is less (although more than Scorpion who have their own attachment control).


Here is my defence of why I chose Crane (a choice which seems to be taking a bit of a battering).

1. Dishonour really hurts Phoenix. So you often choose Fire first player. And if you are second, playing a Steward of Law BEFORE they choose their ring can often be a deterrent to leave the ring for you (obviously not if they have Covert or telegraphing with 3F unspent), though it depends how much Glory they have in play.

2. You have Way of the Phoenix to nab Fire (and if you play Know the World, a way to trigger Fire twice). You should mulligan for this vs. Crane because, if you can shut them out of Honour, you gain Voice control - very swingy.

3. You can sometimes bait their Court Games on a Dishonour play (on a normal character). It hurts Voice of Honour more if they use it to compete on Honoured. Meantime you use your Court Games just for Honour (because it usually nets you more as you always control its pumped up threat use).

4. It is essential you get at least 1 Honoured character (more upside than Dishonour usually) to turn on your Stronghold's Glory pump otherwise its use is only for Orator, Fearsome Mystic and any Dishonour on opponent's characters. Note that this is for the entire phase hence the Voltron approach with Against the Waves to reuse the Glory pump (most strongholds only affect the conflict).

5. You have Asasko Diplomat to help you get Honour overlap you need.

6. Shiba Yojimbo can immunise the Honoured Shugenja from Dishonour tricks of Court Games and For Shame in political.

7. Later game, if you have Display of Power in hand and Fire is crucial, you can just save as 2nd player and surprise take the pass bonus from them.


So I chose Crane because of the 1 influence Steward. Then when you realise that you do have Honour tech and that you need to Honour your characters anyway for your Stronghold and already high Glory, Voice of Honour seems a good fit. Of course you struggle against Crane, that's true. But if any Clan is set for contesting Crane for Honour on characters, it's Phoenix.

If you are actively pursuing Honour to buff your high Glory characters, then Voice of Honour seems a sensible choice. However, I may well be wrong and it is indeed a "trap card". I don't think this is quite so clear-cut either way.


It will be disappointing if there are optimal builds in Core Set. Often depends on play styles.

[IFightDragons]

1) Agreed on Steward of Law in terms of it being a very solid Conflict character than helps protect against dishonor as an added bonus. 

2) I don't run Way of the Phoenix, at all. It simply doesn't do enough for a conflict card, especially in a faction yearning for impactful reach effects. Know the World goes in and out depending on what exactly I want the deck to do. Crane have 6 events that honor immediately that they always mulligan for and a couple of characters that self honor/proliferate honor. Just taking the Fire Ring will not turn off Voice of Honor for them most of the time.

3) I find that you don't typically have a lot of characters in a conflict, especially early on, so Court Games is often not left up for you to decide who is dishonored. I do agree that I use it to honor a character most of the time.

4) I don't think it's essential at all. The match-ups where you struggle to honor a character are often the ones where they are more likely to dishonor a character or two of their own, like Crane or Scorpion. Negative stats are generally more impactful than positive stats, because enough negative stats gives you character advantage from not needing to defend, which can often mean more than just a +2/+2 buff that can be removed by many events currently being played.

5) Diplomat is fantastic, no argument; but she does point to a major point I have against Voice of Honor for Phoenix versus Crane or Lion. Phoenix have a delay on most of their honoring effects because they hinge on winning a conflict (Diplomat, Kimono, Fire Ring, ect.). Crane and Lion have a lot of inherent or immediate honor from characters self honoring consistently or events that honor immediately, there's no reliance on having to win a conflict before turning on voice of honor. In addition, having to win a conflict is a huge weakness because there's way more your opponent can do to stop you winning a conflict than there is to stop you playing an event.

6) Yojimbo doesn't stop Court Games, as the targeting is part of the effect and not of the initiation. So by the time the targeting happens, it's past the window for your Yojimbo to trigger and protect the Shugenja. Still, the Yojimbo is a vastly underrated card and a staple for the current phoenix build.

7) Display of Power is bordering on the best non-neutral event in the game. We are seeing a lot of Scorpion and Crane splashing Scorpion, though, so you can't hedge on it all the time.

The ultimate issue with Voice of Honor rises from Phoenix's delayed honoring that is more easilly counter-able by the opponent because it typically requires winning a conflict versus just playing an event. This delayed nature often means you are going at least one or two conflicts before being able to maybe play the card. So I don't think it's great overall. If I were to splash Crane I'd probably prioritize Above Question, Steward of Law and Admit Defeat. I don't think this measures up to the power of Fury for the Phoenix game plan, though. 

As an additional aside, Miya Mystic doesn't really do much more for Phoenix than it does any other faction. The main card it might help with is Supernatural Storm, but you are unlikely to Against the Waves a Miya Mystic and Shiba Yojimbo protecting a 1/1 isn't exactly high value. The issue with the mystic is it's never an immediate answer, more of a deterrence.

[Killcrazy]

Thanks for the rebuttal Sparrowhawk. It's a strong argument for the benefits of Voice of Honor and going Crane.

I'm concerned about the ease of honoring so you can get it off. Lets list the ways -

Fire ring, supported by Display of Power and Way of the Phoenix (5-6 cards) Since its ring dependant trigger, I'd half the card value to 2.5-3

Asako Diplomat - probably the closest thing to a sure way to trigger it (3 cards)

Magnificent Kimono - dangerous but yes capable of Honoring your chars (2-3 cards)

Court Games - guaranteed Honor barring cancel (3 cards)

Does not seem too bad:
3 cards in Dynasty
7.5 cards in Conflict (yes I know this gut feel math, excuse me)

Gives me a strong change to unlock Voice of Honor in Round 1 after the 1st conflict. It might work and play along to thr slow and steady Phoenix strategy. I'll see if I can get a few games in to see how it goes in actual play.

Cheers

[sparrowhawk]

Thanks for the re-rebuttal, IFightDragons. I fully endorse challenging any groupthink that may form and did not wish my Crane splash to be "a favourite in the forum". I just believe it's viable. Your argument seems to be those cancels are high risk. But they are also high reward with an undeclared splash and can be back-breaking. You need cancel protection for Pacifism vs Let Go or Display of Power vs Forged Edict. I think we differ in that I am keen to always optimise my Stronghold in my builds (hence lamenting not Keeper of Fire, although Shameful Display is indeed nice extra Honour).

Thank you Killcrazy for reminding me about Kimono which I discuss in my original post as yet more Honour tech. Supports my belief that Phoenix are best placed to contest Most Honoured characters outside of Crane.

To demonstrate openess to other options, I have looked at Unicorn as mentioned by nightcrawlers above. A bowed Fearsome Mystic + Favoured Mount + optional Seeker of Knowledge can be a blow-out. You attack in Void with Isawa Atsuka, she gets expelled before you can trigger - just Mount her back in. But what Unicorn splash needs are cards like:

Isawa Tactician
Dynasty character, stats TBC
Shugenja, Void
Action: while this character is participating in a conflict at an attacked province whose element matches the contested ring - trigger the effect of the contested ring (max. 1/conflict)

Kami's Blessing
Attachment, cost 0
Spell, Water
Attach to a Shugenja you control
Action: while this character is participating in a conflict, bow this attachment - play a card with an element that matches the attacked province's element, then gain 1 Fate

Feather in the Wind
Event, cost 0
Spell, Air
Action: during a conflict, choose a Shugenja you control whose traited element matches the element of the attacked province - move it into the conflict or home

What Unicorn splash needs are effects that leverage Iuchi Wayfarer's peek ability. It will come as traits are telegraphed synergies.

I am most excited about the future of Phoenix because I suspect they will end up being a very appropriately thinking-based challenging Clan with lots of synergies to interweave.

Sorry, I seem to have rambled on a bit. I won't delete; someone may find it interesting